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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:03 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:54 pm
Posts: 666
Location: North Carolina
I have been using seal coat and universal sealer for a while now. Ive been using bona stains and waterbase poly and want to incorporate bona dri-fast sealer instead of seal coat. Dri-fast sealer is an oil poly sealer and sealcoat is shellac. Is one more durable than the other? How about flammability?how does the bona dri-fast look in comparison to seal coat..under waterbase poly?


Thanks Floorseasons


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:08 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 1565
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
IMO, they look very similar. They both have their own pros and cons
Cost..............I think they are similar
Dry Time.......Seal Coat wins this. DriFast will take at least twice as long to
dry and probably even more than that.
Appearence...Similar enough
Ease of use....I think DriFast wins this. Less issues with grain raise, easier to
apply, less flammable, can use cut in pads. It is basically a
quick dry poly. Zar had one but it never dried that quick.
Buffing..........You will need to buff/screen the DriFast before coating. With
Seal Coat, the idea is to hot coat so buffing is NOT required.

In the end, Seal Coat could save you time, enabling you to apply more coats per day. Just my opinion.


Last edited by Gary on Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:16 am 
Quote:
With
Seal Coat, the idea is to hot coat so buffing is required.

Gary: Did you want to edit or shall I? :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 1565
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Thanks Charlie, that slipped by me. I fixed it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:03 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:32 am
Posts: 42
Seal Coat is NON stearated shellac.
They are the first company to make it in a can.
It used to be you had to buy the shellac in flakes or bars, and then dissolve in alcohol...if you wanted non-stearated.
It has been around hundreds of years, and was originally (they say still is) used for violin finishes.


Furniture companies (before they all went overseas) used to always use a highly reduced shellac as a first coat just to ensure better adhesion and properties for their final finishes. It is very good at making finishes "behave". But floors rarely have any behavioral problems.

I can assure you that seal coat will be unequalled in adhesion (although, I'm not sure it matters, since everything else seems to adhere quite well anyway,...except for, possibly, using it after a stain. And I cannot tell you with assurity than seal-coat will adhere any better to stain than anything else.

One thing about seal coat that I run into now and then is the fact that it dries so fast. (Technically it's an alcohol-borne lacquer). Sometimes I can get odd lap-marks at the ends I have to deal with.

I do believe that seal coat will be regulated out of existence in many states due to VOC sooner or later. We can still get it in Los Angeles (it does NOT meet the voc rules here) because it is classified as a problem solver and as such they are allowed to sell it as an exempt.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Florida
Puke,

Sealcoat/ Universal Sealer is a 100% de-waxed shellac and as such meets the national VOC law for shellac which is 740g/L. This is legal in all states even California.

It is 2 pound cut which is about 590g/L and if reduced to 1 pound cut with denatured alcohol it will be about at the 740g/L level.

The main reason that shellac has its own category is the same reason swedish finishes or conversion varnishes have 730g/L is that neither can be reformulated with water.

It is a great sealer and because of the de-waxed feature just about everything will stick to it. The biggest drawback is that it will not screen or sand well because it melts and loads the sandpaper/screen.

Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:20 pm
Posts: 1251
Location: Michigan
I just heard from my dist. rep that Duraseal is coming out with a shellac sealer (universal). In the past I have tried Parks and liked it so I'll have to try this.


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 Post subject: Sealer
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Florida
As with any good product, if someone will buy it then every manufacturer will jump on the band wagon and copy it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:20 pm
Posts: 1251
Location: Michigan
Bill
So what are you saying? or who is the source or originator of universal sealer, the chinese.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:32 am
Posts: 42
I can assume you are referring to the original chinese black lacquer (which was black tree gum from a particular tree species over there,...) as saying they are the originators of shellac. I guess in a way, they are. And it was very expensive furniture in times past. It seems as in my coatings education that the chinese, (thousands of years ago..not necessarily now), would take black tree gum once a day and rub it on their newly made wood pieces. After a month or so they would decide that was enough coats and there you have it. Since (other than watercolor) chinese black lacquer far pre-dates any other types of lacquers...It is considered the original lacquer. The closest thing is actually black shellac.

I believe the shellac we use nowadays comes from the term shells and lacquer.And was orinally used as a substitute for the chinese stuff. (shell---lac (quer). And is made from dried bug shells of some sort or another, and sort of mimics the properties of the original chinese. No-body "invented" it in recent history, but it has evolved.

But since it gums up everything in sight so easily, it has always had wax type additives in it if you bought it in can (pre-made) form. Which is OK if you are going over it with another laquer (including acid-cure pre-cat), but not ok if it's polyurethane and other more modern finishes that didn't used to be around.

Regular shellac has always been easy to deal with if you used steel wool as an abrasive, no gum up, and at any point you can decide it's enought and say "finished"...I guess a zillion years ago (long before I got in the business) they used to do that on floors and then keep them waxed or oiled to death afterward, which is totally not practical on a floor nowadays. People do not like maintainence. Including me. I am just as lazy as the next guy;

My two cents.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:02 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:37 pm
Posts: 783
Location: N.Y.
Puke,

shellac comes from the secretions of the Lac beatle in asia somewhere. I think mainly Indonesia? there must be alot of them. ha!

Kevin


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:13 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 1565
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Righto Kevin, shellac indeed comes from the secretions of the lac beetle.
http://www.shellac.org/shellac.html
And about lacquers, of which there are more than one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer


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 Post subject: sealers
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:05 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:51 am
Posts: 1858
Location: Central Connecticut
Puke and Gary,
Its pretty interesting the info you guys mention. I thought I'd add my little piece of useless information. In the U S the reason lacquer caught on as a finish was after ww1, we were innundated with gun cotton. The chemical engineers devised nitro cellulose lacquer from the over production of gun cotton. At this point in time shellac was the only game in town. Im not sure what gun cotton is, perhaps something forced into the muzzle of a huge gun. That made lacquer cheap and affordable.
Keep the information coming
Paul


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 Post subject: Shellac
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:02 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 340
Location: Florida
Correct. Most furniture finishers bought/buy flake shellac and dissolved it in denatured alcohol to coat their work.

I am talking about "store bought" shellac. As mentioned by others here shellac comes from the secretion of the lac bug which is stripped from trees in India and surrounding areas and refined.

Zinsser is/was the largest importer in the US. They produce Bulls Eye Shellac, BIN, and Sealcoat. Parks/Newparks makes Universal Sealer. Now Duraseal, Harco and Precision are all offering it.

This is the same shellac we used on floors in the 1950's.

Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 1565
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Bill,

Speaking of floor finishes of yesteryear, I have refinished/refurbished a fair amount of floors layed and finished back in the 20's and 30's that had the original finish. A majority of those floors appeared to have a stain of some sort, followed by 1 or two coats of shellac and then waxed. I am only guessing at the finishing techniques of that era based on what I am aware was available. Does this sound correct to you? Was this a common way of finishing floors during that era? What about varnishes? Were those employed as well? Just professionally curious.


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